{"id":24684,"date":"2016-11-14T01:00:36","date_gmt":"2016-11-14T08:00:36","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.alanarnette.com\/blog\/?p=24684"},"modified":"2017-02-18T21:40:37","modified_gmt":"2017-02-19T04:40:37","slug":"the-state-of-everest-a-conversation-with-dave-hahn","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.alanarnette.com\/blog\/2016\/11\/14\/the-state-of-everest-a-conversation-with-dave-hahn\/","title":{"rendered":"The State of Everest: A Conversation with Dave Hahn"},"content":{"rendered":"

With only six months to go before climbers head to Nepal and Tibet for the annual spring climb of Mt. Everest, Dave Hahn, 15 times summiter, was kind enough to share his thoughts on the state of Everest and his own personal plans for guiding.<\/p>\n

Dave Hahn<\/h3>\n

One reason I wanted to catch up with Dave, was\u00a0his comment in\u00a0interviews<\/a>\u00a0earlier this year that he would stop leading Everest expeditions and instead offer private guidance on the mountain. I’ve known him\u00a0for over 10 years and wondered if this was a reflection on the state of Everest or a personal life choice for him. After all, Dave has more summits, at 15, than any foreigner; in other words only 12 Sherpas\u00a0have more summits than Dave thru 2015.<\/p>\n

Dave\u2019s experience in the mountains\u00a0is one\u00a0many aspire to, but few can claim. He has been a guide for\u00a0Rainier Mountaineering Inc<\/a>. (RMI) for 31 years. \u00a0His summits are impressive: 275+ on Rainier, 35\u00a0on Vinson, 22\u00a0summits\u00a0of Denali out of 32 attempts and Cho Oyu and Aconcagua plus\u00a0others. Also he loves to guide the Shackleton Crossing on South Georgia Island.<\/p>\n

He is certainly an accomplished climber but also an impressive writer providing some of the most insightful\u00a0dispatches from any climb.\u00a0\u00a0My last interview with Dave was in\u00a02010<\/a>\u00a0so I was lucky to catch him at home in Taos where he is a professional ski patroller at Taos Ski Valley since 1985.<\/p>\n

Getting to Know Dave<\/h3>\n

Dave, let\u2019s start by\u00a0getting to know you a bit better, then\u00a0the overall state of Everest today and finish with your own plans. First up – a lightning round of quick questions and answers:<\/p>\n

Q: Ski or Climb?<\/strong>
\nA: Both\u2026 emphatically.<\/p>\n

Q: Hot or Cold weather?<\/strong>
\nA: \u00a0I\u2019m better in the cold.<\/p>\n

Q: Beer or Wine?<\/strong>
\nA: \u00a0Whiskey<\/p>\n

Q: Ball Cap or Skull Cap?<\/strong>
\nA: \u00a0Ball Cap<\/p>\n

Q: Northern Hemisphere or Southern Hemisphere?<\/strong>
\nA: \u00a0I don\u2019t discriminate.<\/p>\n

Q: Poker or Gin?<\/strong>
\nA: \u00a0Poker<\/p>\n

Q: SUV or Truck?<\/strong>
\nA: \u00a0Both\u2026 but liking my truck more.<\/p>\n

Q: Movie\u00a0or Book?<\/strong>
\nA: \u00a0Book, when I can summon up the necessary attention span (rare these days\u2026 happens only on expeditions)<\/p>\n

That was fun! \u00a0OK, let\u2019s get on with the more serious stuff.<\/p>\n

\n

Is Everest Safe?<\/h3>\n

AA: Everest seems\u00a0to be the mountain\u00a0the world loves to hate! It feels like\u00a0there is\u00a0rarely positive coverage even in the outdoor oriented media. Why is that?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH:\u00a0Elite climbers are often offended that Everest takes up an outsized chunk of the public\u2019s interest in climbing. \u00a0They point out -correctly- that what goes on each spring on Everest does not represent the cutting edge of what is possible in alpinism. \u00a0Journalists pick up on this disdain and amplify it, but of course, they do that while using the mountain to sell magazines and generate clicks.<\/p>\n

It is easy to vilify the memberele on commercial Everest trips since they are often paying a lot of money (hence they are \u201crich\u201d while the workers are poor)\u2026 Their summit ambitions can be put down to trophy hunting, as opposed to whatever true and virtuous calling \u201creal\u201d climbers are answering. \u00a0And yes, some climbers go to Everest before they have \u201cproper\u201d experience for it.<\/p>\n

The public can be forgiven for believing that every modern Everest climber is hell bent on promoting themselves while destroying the environment, exploiting workers and exceeding their own abilities. \u00a0Some are\u2026 most aren\u2019t, but their stories are less compelling.<\/p>\n

AA: Over the past few years, Everest has seen several large scale natural disasters with serac releases onto the Icefall killing Sherpas and last year\u2019s earthquake with tragedy at Basecamp and throughout Nepal. What impact has this had on your view of guiding Everest?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH: In the broader picture, it hasn\u2019t changed my overall view of guiding Everest. \u00a0I still defend the \u201cindustry\u201d -as we\u2019ve taken to calling it. \u00a0I still think that guiding Everest can be a noble profession. \u00a0I still think that it can be done without exploiting the workers. \u00a0I still think it is a beautiful mountain with a rich history and that we can be there -and work there- without doing great harm to the environment or great insult to the traditions and pioneers of mountaineering.<\/p>\n

But I also think\u2026 as I always did\u2026 that it is a dangerous and deadly environment. \u00a0Those seeking to climb the mountain need to be aware of the potential costs -which could involve a great deal more than simply the price of admission. \u00a0The disasters of 2014 and 2015 can be labeled extraordinary circumstances, but I\u2019d suggest that extraordinary circumstances occur with alarming frequency on the flanks of the biggest mountains on Earth\u2026 the difference in these years is that so many people are on the mountain and living at basecamp that what might have been a near miss in decades past has a far better chance of being a flat out disaster now.<\/p>\n

AA: The Nepal Government seems to struggle with managing Everest. What one or two areas do you think they should focus on to improve safety?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"Climber<\/a>
Climber line on Lhotse Face in 2012. Courtesy of Ralf Dujmovits<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

DH: \u00a0The sheer number of climbers on the mountain is the biggest problem. I\u2019d love to see the Nepalese government limit overall numbers and team size. \u00a0Those Lhotse Face \u201cconga-line\u201d photos that horrified everybody a few years back could have been portraying just two or three of the major operators on the move on the same day.<\/p>\n

The present permitting system means that some teams could easily employ seventy-five sherpas or more. Seventy-five guys moving all at once with heavy loads is a rather extraordinary challenge for anyone else to work around on the route. \u00a0I\u2019m not optimistic though that they will limit the overall numbers. Nepal needs the revenue.<\/p>\n

I do think the government is aware of the need to take better care of the Icefall Doctors and to put more into their training and I see that as a positive sign.<\/p>\n

AA: Since 2000, there have been between 5 and 12 members die on Everest \u2013 total on both sides. Any thoughts on how those deaths can be reduced that don\u2019t include new rules or massive overhaul of how Everest is managed\u00a0by Nepal?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH: Let\u2019s suppose for a moment that it was actually possible to go for those massive changes and add a bunch of new regulations and oversight\u2026 sadly, people will still die on Mount Everest. \u00a0Guides will die, members will die, Sherpas and other Nepalis working on and around the mountain will still die. It is a difficult environment and some accidents and incidents will always occur.<\/p>\n

In regards to \u201cpreventable\u201d deaths\u2026 Well, yes, in theory, perhaps you could get guides and members and all staff educated to the point that such tragedies would no longer occur. \u00a0But in the real world, there will always be new guides and new members and new mountain workers who have to learn from hard experience to be conservative and careful. \u00a0 Learn from the mistakes that others have made, but don\u2019t get too high and mighty about pointing fingers and assigning blame, since, quite obviously, even old veteran guides can still get their priorities screwed up at 28,000 ft.<\/p>\n

AA: Recently some\u00a0Nepali based and Sherpa owned guide companies have had teams with well over 75 members and the same number of Sherpa support. They have offered a climb from the Nepal side for as little as $18K. What advice would you give someone considering joining\u00a0such a team primarily based on the low price?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH: When someone charges a ton for a guided climb, that doesn\u2019t guarantee that it will be a quality experience, and likewise, when someone charges a ridiculously low price, it doesn\u2019t guarantee that the trip will be a disaster. In either case\u2026 let the er beware. In this day and age, any reputable -or disreputable- operator has a track record that is easily discoverable. Do your homework.<\/p>\n

I remind people to consider the style in which they\u2019ve undertaken their other ascents around the world. If all you needed on Denali or Aconcagua was a permit and someone getting you to the hill, perfect\u2026 that low-priced option may work well for you on Everest. But if you needed guidance and leadership and tents and radios and access to medical care and the possibility of rescue\u2026 that might cost more.<\/p>\n

North or South?<\/h3>\n

AA: You have summited from both the north and south sides of Everest. There are some guides saying it is irresponsible to guide members from the South due to the danger in the Icefall. What is your view?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH: Both sides of the mountain present quite different challenges to guiding. \u00a0The North side summit day is a tougher one to manage for guiding a group, in my opinion. \u00a0Particularly if it gets crowded. \u00a0It is a series of choke points and traverses that are extremely difficult to reverse if someone gets sick or hurt. \u00a0It can be very difficult to get rid of altitude (go lower)-which is normally essential to start solving health challenges.<\/p>\n

North side political problems in recent years shouldn\u2019t be ignored either\u2026 the permitting can\u2019t always be counted on in advance since the Chinese have put their obvious priority on \u201cmanaging\u201d Tibet away from the prying eyes of foreigners.<\/p>\n

The Southside danger and difficulty of the Icefall is well-documented, but perhaps it isn\u2019t always appreciated that the climbers who master the Icefall are ultimately better skilled for taking on the difficulties up high on the Southern route.<\/p>\n

I think that individual guides may have good reasons for choosing either the North or South sides to work on. \u00a0When those guides make public pronouncements as to why their own choice is the only responsible course of action\u2026 it should be viewed less as a public service and more as old fashioned self promotion.<\/p>\n

Crowds<\/h3>\n

AA: Over the past few years, Everest has become very crowded with people having little experience. How has this factored\u00a0into your guiding plans?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH: I know that a lot of people focus on the problem of marginally qualified climbers on Everest, but I\u2019d say that the greater troubles involve sheer numbers. \u00a0As an expedition leader, my concerns were much more about how many other teams, with their associated Sherpa support, were on the mountain.<\/p>\n

It was getting quite difficult -or impossible- to \u201cdodge\u201d those crowds. \u00a0It was getting inevitable that you\u2019d get caught up in other people\u2019s problems\u2026 be that due to their inexperience, or just plain old bad luck. \u00a0This partly shaped my desire to be there as a smaller and more nimble party (guiding one-on-one)<\/p>\n

AA: Over the years you were often\u00a0one of the last parties to summit Everest. Was this by design to avoid the crowds or just the way things worked out?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH:\u00a0It was by design, for several reasons. \u00a0While it is far more convenient for guides and guide companies to get Everest wrapped up in early May, the mountain can be a lot tougher for \u201cnormal\u201d folks when it is bitterly cold, the route isn\u2019t well-established and there are too many people going high all at once. \u00a0So I was often waiting for better -easier- conditions and for the crowd to thin out. \u00a0That strategy wasn\u2019t always working anymore\u2026 \u00a0the spring season was getting so busy that the crowd was no-longer thinning out.<\/p>\n

AA: Do you believe Nepal should\u00a0limit the number of permits, similar to the system on Denali. And\/or place an experience requirements for all climbers? And finally, certify all guides as to experience, medical training and climbing skills?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH:\u00a0All of these limitations and requirements are fiendishly difficult to implement and enforce. \u00a0No offense to the good people trying to govern Nepal, but I\u2019m not sure they are up to this. \u00a0They need the revenue, so it is unlikely that they will turn away aspiring climbers or guides. \u00a0And again, with respect, they\u2019ve got far more profound problems to solve in the rest of Nepal. \u00a0WE have the luxury of fixating on Everest\u2026 they do not.<\/p>\n

Rapid Ascent Climbs<\/h3>\n

AA: A growing trend is to summit the 8000 meter mountains as quickly as possible. Some are suggesting that by acclimatizing at home in altitude tents, Everest can be summited in under three weeks, home to home. What are your thoughts on this approach?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH: I think it is often important to separate fashions and trends in personal climbing with those in guided climbing. While I\u2019ve been envious of those folks who have swept in and out in such short periods of time, they are usually trying for different goals than I am.<\/p>\n

Most normal folks need the benefit of a little more time to try an 8000 meter peak. \u00a0They often need time to suffer through a bout of gut illness or a sore throat without it torpedoing their trip. \u00a0If the idea is to just guide accomplished athletes who come in with superb conditioning and don\u2019t get sick -well, I have had some experience with that too\u2026 pretty cool. \u00a0But I think the bulk of guiding will always be done with \u201cnormal\u201d folks\u2026 and I\u2019m ok with that.<\/p>\n

I see nothing inherently\u00a0wrong with pre-acclimatizing for Himalayan trips. \u00a0I worry though about people searching for magic solutions that might promise to make big-mountain climbing comfortable and convenient. \u00a0Good luck.<\/p>\n

Your Future on Everest<\/h3>\n

AA: This spring, 2016, was the first time you were not in the Himalaya\u00a0in almost\u00a020 years. You were quoted<\/a> as saying that you “only want to do\u00a0private guiding for select members who are willing to pay a premium”\u00a0What is the background on this decision?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH: When stated that way, it sounds a little elitist\u2026 and I don\u2019t mean it that way. \u00a0I guess I like it better if we call it one-on-one guiding, since a preference for \u201cprivate members\u201d sounds like it is all about the money.<\/p>\n

Being an expedition leader on Everest was a great and worthy challenge\u2026 and while I\u2019m not so arrogant as to believe that I always got it just right, I\u2019m satisfied that I worked that challenge long enough and hard enough. I\u2019ve never been big on the logistics and planning of Everest expeditions. \u00a0It has always been the actual guiding on the mountain that interested me.<\/p>\n

My last seasons of trying to lead groups on Everest were obviously quite difficult (in 2014 and 2015). \u00a0The burdens of leadership were magnified. \u00a0The rewards were slim or non-existent. \u00a0Everest leaders like to feel in control\u2026 \u00a0and I wasn\u2019t feeling that way. \u00a0I gave it some thought and decided that if I were to work on the mountain again, I\u2019d narrow my focus and concentrate on the guiding\u2026 specifically guiding one well-qualified and motivated person at a time.<\/p>\n

AA: Will you still guide for RMI or only on\u00a0one-on-one climbs? And you said you only wanted to guide at a \u201cpremium price\u201d. What is that price?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH:\u00a0I\u2019d still be guiding for RMI but I\u2019d narrow my focus to a single member and I\u2019d leave the leadership of the overall team to my fellow RMI guides.<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t know what the actual figure would be. \u00a0That may sound silly, but the only specifics I gave RMI on it were the amount that I personally needed to make out of such a trip and the style I wanted to do it in\u2026 by which I meant that I didn\u2019t want to be on the mountain on any effort that was hurting for resources or staffing.<\/p>\n

Suffice to say that someone looking to hire me for what would be my 22nd Everest expedition would be paying at the upper end of the guided scale.<\/p>\n

AA: Given your earlier\u00a0comments\u00a0on\u00a0the motivations of the \u201ctrophy hunting\u201d\u00a0climber, what is the profile of an Everest climber that you prefer to lead?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH:\u00a0That was me poking fun at the discomfort others might feel in regards to peak-bagging climbers, collecting summits. \u00a0I don\u2019t actually have a problem with trophy hunting mountain climbers. \u00a0People are entitled to their own motivations for climbing mountains. \u00a0Best not to judge. \u00a0Like most guides, my ideal member\/partner would be the one who shows up in the absolute shape of his or her life, having studied the mountain and its human history, and ready for a true adventure with an uncertain outcome.<\/p>\n

AA: Last question. \u00a0Will you be on Everest in 2017?<\/strong><\/p>\n

DH:\u00a0Tough to say. I\u2019m a creature of habit -I went on twenty-four 8000 meter expeditions in 25 years. \u00a0Everest means a lot to me and I care very much for the people I worked with on the mountain. \u00a0But I just turned 55\u2026 there are younger, smarter, better-looking guides hard at work on Everest and perhaps I should leave it to them.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Thanks Dave!<\/p>\n

These interviews take a lot of time to get right. By right I mean to be clear in the questions and answers, tune for the nuance as well as any message. Dave was fun to work with and, as always, an inspiration for being direct, no-nonsense and willing to talk candidly about the industry in a way I rarely find amongst professional mountain guides.<\/p>\n

If you get a chance to climb with Dave on Rainier, Denali, Vinson or even Everest – jump at it. It will be a\u00a0highlight\u00a0of your climbing life; but don’t play poker with him!<\/p>\n

Climb On!
\nAlan
\nMemories are Everything<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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